I don’t mean to minimize the company’s role in their offerings, but are these rebadged Clevo/Tongfang/etc laptops? There’s a place for those but that would make NovaCustom more comparable to system76 or Tuxedo than Framework, which designs their own hardware.
I’d wish custom development could be minimized and everyone instead assembled next generation systems using the best open, standardized, and reusable parts.. which then could be sourced or salvaged on almost any continent. Just a wish.
Spend enough time in a repair forum and you'll realise that 99% of laptops out there are already just reference designs from the CPU manufacturers. Of course Apple is the exception, but when they were still using x86 CPUs, so were their designs.
As far as I know, for models currently on sale that applies only to their desktops (which are cool, but considerably more niche since people interested in desktops are likely to build their own), with their laptops being Clevos.
My personal opinion is that System76 isn't really targeting personal users with their desktop line, though, but instead is more focused on professional users. For example, I built my own desktop computer at home, but if I needed one for work for doing ML or just to have the increased compute over my company-issued laptop, there's no way that my organization would sign-off on letting me spec out my own parts from Newegg and spend a day or two building and testing the system, then trying to install NVIDIA drivers on Ubuntu.
What they would (and do) sign-off on is a one-time purchase of a desktop from an approved vendor for that desktop, which comes with out-of-the-box support for the NVIDIA GPU I've selected. That's more the niche that I feel System76 is really filling.
Depends what you mean by "design". They get to choose some aspects of how it looks in general, but as for the actual schematics/PCB layout, that's based on the CPU manufacturer's reference design.
Edit: the amount of downvoting the original comment got, and the sibling that got killed for saying effectively the same thing, makes me think someone is trying to push a certain narrative, but the truth is out there. No one except a very small number of OEMs actually designs PC mobos, and they are also based on reference designs from Intel or AMD.
I mean, isn't laying things out so the ports they need for the expansion slots "design"? It's not like there'll be a reference design that has those in those locations.
I took a poke around their website and it looks like you can purchase a motherboard. It seems this exists somewhere between the mainstream and Framework: a regular laptop with right to repair.
NVIDIA, though? We are still a good few months, or years, away from attempting to seriously use NVIDIA and Linux in the same sentence without looking like a complete idiot.
I'm not sure what you're talking about here. I am a customer of System76 several times over. I just purchased a laptop for my 15-year-old that runs Pop_OS and has an NVIDIA card, and he has been doing both AI on it as well as high-end gaming, all is zero assistance from me in getting things set up. I also worked on self-driving cars and maintained fleets of hundreds of machines with H100s, all running Ubuntu.
I don't feel like a complete idiot, but now you're making me wonder. What's your experience been?
My Linux system has a nasty little bug in the card audio ouput system that results in dropped audio when there's too much bus traffic. That's a direct result of Nvidia issues deep in the stack. And of course, Nvidia's automotive division is infuriating to work with.
Nvidia drivers have included serious Wayland support since the 550 series. My NixOS Nvidia system has run equally as smooth as my Intel iGPU for close to a year now.
I have a GTX 650 Ti that keeps being erratic with Wayland to where it becomes unusable out of the box. Didn't take any time to try and resolve because it is being used as a server. Disabled the GUI service and only boot into terminal.
Like I said, you need 550-series drivers or later to have good support. The 600-series has been depreciated for a while now so its not surprising that it's not supported.
Note that the coreboot that NovaCustom uses is not the same coreboot that Purism or System76 is using. It's Dasharo coreboot. This is not free (as in price). NovaCustom has to pay for a license. How much of that cost is reflected in high price tag for NovaCustom. Maybe it is not much.
If the purchaser does not want Dasharo, they can usually compile their own non-Dasharo coreboot and flash it themselves.
> not the same coreboot that Purism or System76 is using
Usually each laptop OEM ships a unique downstream tree and release build of firmware (UEFI or coreboot), optimized for their hardware, similar to the relationship between RedHat/Debian and mainline Linux kernel. Since coreboot is GPL, each Clevo OEM should provide source for their firmware.
I don't understand... what is the privacy concern with Framework Laptops?
All hardware used is transparent and replacable. Software is the user's choice, and many users go for Linux. It is as transparent as you can make an OS to be.
* puts on cynical hat * I suspect it is most just marketing. Privacy can help you sell even if it is no better than what a lot of people are doing.
Using open boot and a neutered Intel ME is a good start but nothing too unique nowadays.
Also at this point hardware privacy is all well and good but if you are going to dump stock Windows 11 on it, well it is called Windows for a reason, lets all your data out of one.
>Framework. vPro Enterprise Framework devices actually meet HSI level 4, but they unfortunately do not handle firmware updates properly. They have not shipped a single firmware for their 13th generation over a year since its release date, and over 6 months since the disclosure of LogoFail. While they do ship some updates for other devices, how they have been handling so far is not acceptable if you need a secure device.
Which laptop vendors have an option to fully disable Intel ME?
- Clevo ODM laptops with coreboot (OEM: NovaCustom, Purism, System76)
- Some (?) pricy Dell Rugged laptops, at purchase time
- Some (?) standard HP business laptops, via BIOS
Yea I don’t like trying to ride the frame work tailwinds, but wow modern hardware with modern nvidia gpu that supports core boot and heads? The only thing missing is a stellar company reputation that inspires trust
The vRam for example limits you running local llms. Basically, the formula for this is: 1GB of vRAM can handle 1B parameters. There are ways to overcome this, but the easiest way for the best performance, is just to have enough vRAM.
I’m confused how a premium priced laptop comes with an NVMe drive that uses host memory buffer (HMB) rather than having sufficient RAM on the drive. At Amazon, a better drive like a WD SN850x costs 25% less than the GOODRAM drive they include.
Yeah a company that you have to pay 9 euros to NOT HAVE an engraving of their logo on your $2,000 machine really inspires confidence in their respect for your privacy.
It does for me. In case you missed the Snowden leaks, pretty much every American laptop OEM is in bed with the NSA.
I swear that hipster marketing has ruined HN's ability to evaluate products. Next you people are going to start bitching about the logo not lighting up.
> pretty much every American laptop OEM is in bed with the NSA
Can you elaborate on what you mean by this? The big revelation of the Snowden leaks was that the NSA was spying on Americans, which it isn’t (wasn’t) supposed to do. What does a laptop vendor have to do with it?
I don't really understand what's privacy-focused about it that Framework isn't. Isn't privacy mostly a software problem, other than hardware switches on camera/mic, which Framework already has?
> We do not use Google Analytics
Why do I care if you use Google Analytics? Doesn't affect the laptop I get. You're free to analyze your site traffic with whatever tool you want. (I block Google Analytics on the client side personally so I really don't care if you use it or not, it's all the same to me.)
> We use Signal and you can reach us via Protonmail.
Again, why should I care what you use within your business? Your business is a black box to me, and the right privacy assumption is to assume the worst about what's inside that black box, rather than try to audit what's used inside that box, and not send privileged information to you in the first place.
> You can buy your laptop with Linux preinstalled.
Yeah, no, I don't trust you to install an OS for me. Since I care about privacy, I would of course install my own OS.
> We setup your operating system with the most privacy-friendly settings. Even if we install Windows!
Looks like they just default to privacy. Sounds trivial but is actually quite important. Second they are using coreboot, so no proprietary firmware. Much better than average.
I don’t mean to minimize the company’s role in their offerings, but are these rebadged Clevo/Tongfang/etc laptops? There’s a place for those but that would make NovaCustom more comparable to system76 or Tuxedo than Framework, which designs their own hardware.
I’d wish custom development could be minimized and everyone instead assembled next generation systems using the best open, standardized, and reusable parts.. which then could be sourced or salvaged on almost any continent. Just a wish.
Spend enough time in a repair forum and you'll realise that 99% of laptops out there are already just reference designs from the CPU manufacturers. Of course Apple is the exception, but when they were still using x86 CPUs, so were their designs.
I think system76 is now designing their own hardware too?
As far as I know, for models currently on sale that applies only to their desktops (which are cool, but considerably more niche since people interested in desktops are likely to build their own), with their laptops being Clevos.
My personal opinion is that System76 isn't really targeting personal users with their desktop line, though, but instead is more focused on professional users. For example, I built my own desktop computer at home, but if I needed one for work for doing ML or just to have the increased compute over my company-issued laptop, there's no way that my organization would sign-off on letting me spec out my own parts from Newegg and spend a day or two building and testing the system, then trying to install NVIDIA drivers on Ubuntu.
What they would (and do) sign-off on is a one-time purchase of a desktop from an approved vendor for that desktop, which comes with out-of-the-box support for the NVIDIA GPU I've selected. That's more the niche that I feel System76 is really filling.
Ah I see!
[dead]
than Framework, which designs their own hardware.
They don't either. I believe Framework is OEM'd by Compal.
Did some looking and it appears that Framework does in fact design the hardware. They have a deal with Compal to then manufacture it.
Depends what you mean by "design". They get to choose some aspects of how it looks in general, but as for the actual schematics/PCB layout, that's based on the CPU manufacturer's reference design.
Edit: the amount of downvoting the original comment got, and the sibling that got killed for saying effectively the same thing, makes me think someone is trying to push a certain narrative, but the truth is out there. No one except a very small number of OEMs actually designs PC mobos, and they are also based on reference designs from Intel or AMD.
I mean, isn't laying things out so the ports they need for the expansion slots "design"? It's not like there'll be a reference design that has those in those locations.
This seems to have nothing similar to what Framework laptop offers.
The main (only?) selling point for NovaCustom is open source coreboot firmware and disabling of Intel ME.
I'd like to see Framework laptop with these features, but those two features do not make a Framework alternative.
The spare parts front and center without hoops or hacks does look pretty much like Framework actually.
The security features are options you can select like:
- Disabled IME
- Coreboot EDK or Heads
- Removed Camera and Microphone
- Buskill kit
- Privacyscreen
- Tamper-evident Screws and Packaging
I took a poke around their website and it looks like you can purchase a motherboard. It seems this exists somewhere between the mainstream and Framework: a regular laptop with right to repair.
NVIDIA, though? We are still a good few months, or years, away from attempting to seriously use NVIDIA and Linux in the same sentence without looking like a complete idiot.
I'm not sure what you're talking about here. I am a customer of System76 several times over. I just purchased a laptop for my 15-year-old that runs Pop_OS and has an NVIDIA card, and he has been doing both AI on it as well as high-end gaming, all is zero assistance from me in getting things set up. I also worked on self-driving cars and maintained fleets of hundreds of machines with H100s, all running Ubuntu.
I don't feel like a complete idiot, but now you're making me wonder. What's your experience been?
My Linux system has a nasty little bug in the card audio ouput system that results in dropped audio when there's too much bus traffic. That's a direct result of Nvidia issues deep in the stack. And of course, Nvidia's automotive division is infuriating to work with.
Good Linux support though.
Nvidia drivers have included serious Wayland support since the 550 series. My NixOS Nvidia system has run equally as smooth as my Intel iGPU for close to a year now.
I have a GTX 650 Ti that keeps being erratic with Wayland to where it becomes unusable out of the box. Didn't take any time to try and resolve because it is being used as a server. Disabled the GUI service and only boot into terminal.
Like I said, you need 550-series drivers or later to have good support. The 600-series has been depreciated for a while now so its not surprising that it's not supported.
> The main (only?) selling point for NovaCustom is open source coreboot firmware and disabling of Intel ME.
Also it's officially certified to run Qubes OS.
Note that the coreboot that NovaCustom uses is not the same coreboot that Purism or System76 is using. It's Dasharo coreboot. This is not free (as in price). NovaCustom has to pay for a license. How much of that cost is reflected in high price tag for NovaCustom. Maybe it is not much.
If the purchaser does not want Dasharo, they can usually compile their own non-Dasharo coreboot and flash it themselves.
> not the same coreboot that Purism or System76 is using
Usually each laptop OEM ships a unique downstream tree and release build of firmware (UEFI or coreboot), optimized for their hardware, similar to the relationship between RedHat/Debian and mainline Linux kernel. Since coreboot is GPL, each Clevo OEM should provide source for their firmware.
I don't understand... what is the privacy concern with Framework Laptops? All hardware used is transparent and replacable. Software is the user's choice, and many users go for Linux. It is as transparent as you can make an OS to be.
What am I missing here..?
* puts on cynical hat * I suspect it is most just marketing. Privacy can help you sell even if it is no better than what a lot of people are doing.
Using open boot and a neutered Intel ME is a good start but nothing too unique nowadays.
Also at this point hardware privacy is all well and good but if you are going to dump stock Windows 11 on it, well it is called Windows for a reason, lets all your data out of one.
https://4fa2b80c.privsec-dev-2oz.pages.dev/posts/knowledge/l...
>Framework. vPro Enterprise Framework devices actually meet HSI level 4, but they unfortunately do not handle firmware updates properly. They have not shipped a single firmware for their 13th generation over a year since its release date, and over 6 months since the disclosure of LogoFail. While they do ship some updates for other devices, how they have been handling so far is not acceptable if you need a secure device.
Believe they updated firmware again, but yes proprietary and slow to update.
The problem is Intel Management Engine, which is disabled in NovaCustom.
This really has no bearing to the framework laptop. Great project though!
Which laptop vendors have an option to fully disable Intel ME?
Yea I don’t like trying to ride the frame work tailwinds, but wow modern hardware with modern nvidia gpu that supports core boot and heads? The only thing missing is a stellar company reputation that inspires trust
A maximum of 8GB vRAM in 2025 is quite limiting. You can only run the smallest large language models on those laptops.
Maybe this laptop is not for you then. That's cool.
But if you don't need to run LLM's these will be fine.
Yes I guess some could also be fine with a privacy focused mechanical typewriter.
When Apple and AMD sell very descent laptop hardware (M4 or Ryzen AI Max), I find the Intel/Nvidia combo with only 8GB a bit conservative.
Your world must be so different from mine! It would never occur to me to care about such a thing.
I was content with 8GB of main RAM in my dev laptop until about a year ago.
The vRam for example limits you running local llms. Basically, the formula for this is: 1GB of vRAM can handle 1B parameters. There are ways to overcome this, but the easiest way for the best performance, is just to have enough vRAM.
If running local LLMs were a thing I ever wanted to do, I'm sure that would be something that mattered to me.
I’m confused how a premium priced laptop comes with an NVMe drive that uses host memory buffer (HMB) rather than having sufficient RAM on the drive. At Amazon, a better drive like a WD SN850x costs 25% less than the GOODRAM drive they include.
finally a vendor that allows the customization of the super key
and also ships with nvidia gpu
I might have found a new laptop…
Don't Frameworks ship with QMK now, allowing you to customize the entire keyboard at the hardware level?
16s do, but not the 13s.
oh yes, they do
but I meant the actual sticker on the keycap (very silly requirement, I know)
Framework offers either a Windows logo or the Framework logo
Yeah a company that you have to pay 9 euros to NOT HAVE an engraving of their logo on your $2,000 machine really inspires confidence in their respect for your privacy.
It does for me. In case you missed the Snowden leaks, pretty much every American laptop OEM is in bed with the NSA.
I swear that hipster marketing has ruined HN's ability to evaluate products. Next you people are going to start bitching about the logo not lighting up.
> pretty much every American laptop OEM is in bed with the NSA
Can you elaborate on what you mean by this? The big revelation of the Snowden leaks was that the NSA was spying on Americans, which it isn’t (wasn’t) supposed to do. What does a laptop vendor have to do with it?
I don't really understand what's privacy-focused about it that Framework isn't. Isn't privacy mostly a software problem, other than hardware switches on camera/mic, which Framework already has?
> We do not use Google Analytics
Why do I care if you use Google Analytics? Doesn't affect the laptop I get. You're free to analyze your site traffic with whatever tool you want. (I block Google Analytics on the client side personally so I really don't care if you use it or not, it's all the same to me.)
> We use Signal and you can reach us via Protonmail.
Again, why should I care what you use within your business? Your business is a black box to me, and the right privacy assumption is to assume the worst about what's inside that black box, rather than try to audit what's used inside that box, and not send privileged information to you in the first place.
> You can buy your laptop with Linux preinstalled.
Yeah, no, I don't trust you to install an OS for me. Since I care about privacy, I would of course install my own OS.
> We setup your operating system with the most privacy-friendly settings. Even if we install Windows!
Nope nope nope
Looks like they just default to privacy. Sounds trivial but is actually quite important. Second they are using coreboot, so no proprietary firmware. Much better than average.